Posts by Disillusioned JW

103

Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman in

only jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.

“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.

Disillusioned JW

Correction: In my first post of page 2 of this topic thread I should have not have said "1971 NWT" nor made the other reference to the 1971 NWT. That is because the 1971 NWT does not have a footnote at Deuteronomy 32:43 to the Septuagint, nor does it have a cross reference in Hebrews to the Septuagint translation of Deuteronomy 32:43. I had assumed that it had such, especially a a footnote to Deuteronomy 32:43 since the 1951-1960 NWT and the 1984 Reference NWT have such, but my assumption was incorrect.

26

JULY 15TH STUDY EDITION :"If ever that evil slave..." page 24

by raymond frantz in

box on page 24 of the july 15th titled :"if ever the evil slave....".

jesus has placed the weightiest of responsibilities on the faithful and discreet slave-namely,overseeing the domestics and giving out spiritual food atthe proper time.

jesus knew that those with greater responsibility have greater accountability.

Disillusioned JW

Hi Vanderhoven7. I became a strong/positive atheist about 12 years ago and thus I disagree with most of the teachings of the Bible Students movement, as well as the WTS/JWs and the all the other Christian religions/churches/denominations/sects/cults. I made the post to show that Russell did not think up the dates and predictions on his own, but obtained them from Barbour. I also made the post to support my conclusion that Russell was sincere in regards to those teachings and not evil, but I don't agree with those teachings of Russell and the Bible Students.

Since I am now an atheist I no longer believe that Jesus ever was a heavenly Christ and I don't believe that Jesus had a second presence or second coming, though I do know that the NT teaches that Jesus is a heavenly Christ. I believe that If Jesus ever existed as a human, as a historical person, he died and remained dead and will never live again. I now strongly believe (based upon my personal observations and experiences and my knowledge of science) in scientific naturalism, not supernaturalism.

103

Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman in

only jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.

“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.

Disillusioned JW

Fisherman that is fine if you don't want to rehash matters in reply to me and I even am glad you don't want to want rehash matters to me. That is largely because I no longer agree with much of the WTS' so-called scholarship. I have adopted some of the scholarship of evangelicals, of theologically liberal biblical scholars, and even some agnostic scholars and some atheist scholars (such as of Bart Denton Ehrman, who is an agnostic atheist scholar and former fundamentalist Christian).

My post wasn't just addressed to you but also to the others in this topic thread who say that Jesus is Michael the Archangel.

I am familiar with many of the WTS' arguments since I was raised as a JW from infancy, was baptized as a JW in the early 1980s while a teenager, became a ministerial servant at age 19 in the latter 1980s shortly after entering university in pursuit a Bachelor of Science degree (which I later obtained), and years later even gave some Sunday public talks while being a ministerial servant. I also was a regular pioneer for nearly 3 years. But, in the year 1995 I started becoming seriously disillusioned with the WTS/JW religion, and eventually (in about 2010) I became a positive/strong atheist.

My primary point in this topic thread was not that Jesus is God (though I did comment on two verses seemingly claiming that Jesus is God) or equal to God, but to show that the Letter to the Hebrews very clearly makes the case that Jesus is no angel and thus is not Michael the Archangel, even if that case contradicts some other parts of the Bible (and with Philo of Alexandria). The Bible does contradict itself at times.

In my prior post I said that in Hebrews Paul quoted the OT, but I probably shouldn't have said that Paul was one who made the quote. The WT (and some other Christian groups, as well as the title used in the KJV) had taught me that Paul wrote Hebrews, but while I was an independent Christian I learned that modern critical scholars of the Bible say that the author of Hebrews is anonymous. The ARV and ASV, which are translated from better and older manuscripts than those used by the KJV, do not say "Paul" in the title of the Letter to the Hebrews.

103

Jesus is Michael the Archangel

by Fisherman in

only jesus has the power and authority to defeat satan and kick him out of heaven:.

“now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our god and the authority of his christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our god.”.

Disillusioned JW

For those who believe that the Bible reveals that Jesus is the Archangel or any other angel, how do you reconcile that belief with Hebrews chapter one?

Notice that Hebrews 1:4 says that the Son has become better than the angels. How can Jesus be angel, even the Archangel Michael, if Jesus has become better than ALL the angels?

Note that Hebrews 1:6 says that ALL of God's angels are to worship (or do obeisance) to God's Firstborn Son. [Note that in Hebrews 1:6 Paul is quoting from the Septuagint translation of Deuteronomy 32:43 (which is in harmony with the manuscripts found at Qumran by the Dead Sea, in contrast to the Masoretic Hebrew text). For examples of the quote from the Septuagint, see the footnote to Deuteronomy 32:43 in the 1951-1960 NWT, the 1971 NWT, and in the 1984 Reference NWT (and also the scripture cross-reference to the LXX in the 1951-1960, 1971, and 1984 editions of the NWT) and notice that it says "let all the angels of God worship him" - they do not say "do obeisance" in the footnote for that verse. The Augmented Third Edition of The New Oxford Annotated Bible edition of the NRSV (which says "all you gods" in Deut. 32:43) says "All you gods, the divine council (v. 8n.; Ps 29.1), probably removed from the received Heb text because of the conflict with monotheism (see v v. 8-9n.)." This is one of the evidences that the NT writers relied more upon the wording of the Greek Septuagint (and/or Hebrew texts consistent the Qumran scrolls) instead of the received/traditional Massretic Hebrew text. As a result, Christian Bibles probably should be translating their OT from the Greek Septuagint instead of the Massoretic Hebrew text.]

Notice that 1:7-8 make a contrast between angels and the Son. Contrast the NWT translation of Hebrews 1:8 with that of the KJV, ASV, NASB, NKJV, NRSV, and other Bibles. Read Psalms 45:6-7 in the NWT and compare that with the translation of those verses in the KJV, ASV, NASB, NKJV, NRSV, and other Bibles. Most of the non-NWT English Bibles instead of saying "God is your throne" say "Your throne, O God". [However at Psalms 45:6 the REB does say "God has enthroned you" instead, but at Hebrews 1:8 it does say "Your throne, O God".]

How do you explain 2:5 (in 1984 NWT) which says "it was not angels that God subjected the inhabited earth to come"?

26

JULY 15TH STUDY EDITION :"If ever that evil slave..." page 24

by raymond frantz in

box on page 24 of the july 15th titled :"if ever the evil slave....".

jesus has placed the weightiest of responsibilities on the faithful and discreet slave-namely,overseeing the domestics and giving out spiritual food atthe proper time.

jesus knew that those with greater responsibility have greater accountability.

Disillusioned JW

Vanderhoven7 who is the "Brandon Harper" you referred to who?

Vanderhoven7 I notice your post (quoting from Brandon Harper??) referred to predictions by the WTS from its very beginning. I also notice from a different post of yours that you read James Penton's books. In M. James Pento's book called Apocalypse Delayed: The History of Jehovah's Witnesses (First Edition) on page 19 in chapter one he said that Russell believed in the dates and the predictions pertaining to them and that John Nelson Barbour had taught him those. Penton also says that Russell at times was impressed by rationalistic ideas of a religious nature.and I strongly believe that Penton is correct about these matters. This and other things in Penton's book convince me that Russell was not evil, despite the numerous accusations made by some people of Russell.

[Furthermore, Raymond Franz in his Crisis of Conscience book (Fourth Edition) says he believes the governing body members he knew believed in much of what they taught. He also says he believes that they did what they did (including sometimes being controlling and at times lying) because they all really believed that the Watch Tower is God's organization and that it thus needs to be protected.On page 384 Raymond says the following. 'As stated in this book, it is the concept that controls the men, the concept that the Watch Tower organization was divinely chosen by Christ Jesus and constitutes God's "channel of communication" for all his servants on earth, and that their functioning as a governing body is a divine arrangement.' By these things I don't mean that the Watch Tower and the governing body do no evil, but that the governing body and the directors of the Watch Tower (including Rutherford) up through at least the year 2000 were sincere about most of what they taught, including in regards to dates and predictions.]

Note that page 19 says the following. "Russell, who had formerly rejected Adventist chronology and date-setting, as had George Storrs after 1844, now paid Barbour's expenses to come to Philadelphia to meet him and show 'fully and Scripturally, if he could, that the prophecies indicated 1874 as the date at which the Lord's presence and the "harvest" began.' As the young merchant, then only twenty-four, stated later: 'He came, and the evidence satisfied me.' Once again Russell was impressed by rationalistic ideas.

Page 19 of Penton's book then says that Russell "gave Barbour money to prepare a book representing their beliefs respecting the end of the age" and that the book spelling out the time features was the Three Worlds and the Harvest of This World. Penton further says that though the book bore both Barbour's name and Russell's name "it was composed entirely by Barbour."

Page 22 of Penton's book says that "Barbour was greatly impressed by his own system" contained in the Three Worlds book, and then Penton quotes Barbour for documentation. Page 22 also says "Even George Storrs, a man long hostile to such eschatological date-setting, regarded Barbour's chronology as 'the best I have ever seen.' ...Anyone living in late-nineteenth-century America and impressed by so-called mathematical 'proofs' might have regarded Three Worlds as an important prophetic study if he had the tenacity to read it. Referring to Barbour's system, as taken over by Russell virtually without change, Timothy White comments: 'Russell's chronological patterns, prophecies and parallels are enough to stagger the imagination. The dates 1799, 1874, and 1914 each are the result of several entirely independent methods of calculation. The whole system becomes very harmonious and balanced.' 42

Three Worlds is therefore a very important work. In fact, it contains within it most of the ideas that Russell and those in association with him were to promulgate during the next nearly forty years."

In my recent study of WTS literature, including literature of Russell, I can now see how Russell could truly strongly believe that the dates he promoted (dates he learned from Barbour, but sometimes with some minor changes) really were (in his mind) God's dates and not man's dates. Even variations of some of the terminology of Rutherford's and Russell's writings (and in writings by later authors of WTS literature) conveying the idea of "proof positive", "certain", "conclusive", "beyond doubt" are found in Barbour's book. For examples, consider some of the following statements from Barbour's book.

"Here is positive proof that this kingdom of God is not set up, nor given to Christ, until the end of this world, when He comes in the clouds of heaven."

"That Christ and his saints are eventually to reign on the earth, is placed beyond all doubt by comparing Rev. 20:4, and Rev. 5:10, "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. " And this reigning is positively affirmed to be after the resurrection; and in Dan. 7:13, 14, as if to make it doubly sure, it is shown that the dominion over the nations is not given to Christ until he comes in the clouds of heaven, which we know is at his second advent."

"The Christian church have been right in believing in the eventual conversion of the world, no doctrine of the Bible is so clear and unmistakable; but they have failed to distinguish between the work of the gospel of the kingdom, and the kingdom itself; the one being a preparatory step to the other."

"There is much positive Scripture, to be adduced, to prove that there is to be probation in the millennial age, or world to come, for all who have not been brought to the knowledge of the truth in this world, and committed the unpardonable sin."

'The seventy years captivity ended in the first year of Cyrus, which was B.C. 536. They therefore commenced seventy years before, or B.C. 606. Hence, it was in B.C. 606, that God's kingdom ended, the diadem was removed, and all the earth given up to the Gentiles. 2520 years from B.C. 606, will end in A.D. 1914, or forty years from 1874; and this forty years upon which we have now entered is to be such "a time of trouble as never was since there was a nation." '

"Many arguments are given in this book proving that we are now in the time of harvest; hence, that Christ has come the second time and that he was due, in the autumn of 1874, his appearing in the clouds being yet future. From the seventh month in 1844 to the seventh month in 1874, was thirty years. The first movement brought to view in this parable, and which was to end in disappointment and the tarrying of the bridegroom, ended in 1844. And all the evidences proving that Christ was due in 1874, also prove that this night of tarrying was one of just thirty years. Hence, if this parable is to be accurately applied in every detail, as Christ himself has taught us to apply parables, the midnight cry ("And at midnight there was a cry made"), should have occurred fifteen years after the 1844 disappointment, or in the middle of this night of thirty years. Now, whether it was accidental, or so overruled, this present movement, based on these arguments proving that he was due in 1874, began just at that point of time; that is, fifteen years after 1844. Hence, we have to believe the midnight cry has been given, and that the parable is now nearly complete."

'The seven prophetic times of the Gentiles, or 25-20 [sic] years, is a long period, and without doubt began where God's kingdom, in the line of David, ended, at the beginning of the seventy years captivity, or B.C. 606. And as from where the harvest of the Jewish age began, to A.D. 70, was forty years so this 2520 years, or the "times of the Gentiles," reach from B.C. 606 to A.D. 1914, or forty years beyond 1874. And the time of trouble, conquest of the nations, and events connected with the day of wrath, have only ample time, during the balance of this forty years, for their fulfillment.'

16

New Religion

by crios in

jw
friends

i need a new religion.

it can't be trinidadian and it must be a christian church.

it's been a while since i've been to the hall (and i'm not interested in returning either) and i need a new religion.

Disillusioned JW

crios, are you sure you need a religion? I disagree with the claim (of some Christians) that Christianity is not a religion. Those Christians who say Christianity is not a religion are making a claim much like Rutherford who claimed that 'true' worship of Jehovah God [albeit in the form of the JW faith] is not a religion. The forms of Christianity which practice some version of the Memorial of Christ (Lord's Evening Meal; Eucharist) and baptism are engaging in religious rituals, even if those forms of Christianity emphasize what they believe is a personal relationship with Christ. As a result those forms of Christianity are religions. Even praying to what one believes is God and/or Christ is a practice of religious ritual. Furthermore, Christianity is a religion because it believes in the existence of a personal god and it worships that which it believes is God (or a god), whether it be the Trinity, Yahweh/Jehovah (the Father), and/or Jesus Christ.

What not consider atheism (or agnosticism) and scientific/philosophical naturalism instead of worship? I encourage you to investigate the possibility that no God/god exists at all. I don't need a religion. I also don't need God-belief or even belief in any kind of spirit beings. Perhaps you don't need such either.

12

Verifying The Claim The IBSA ,not JW ,were approved by Jehovah God / Christ Jesus as God`s Chosen People in 1919 ??

by smiddy3 in

how do they verify this claim,if they can and how easy do we debunk this claim if we can ?.

what is needed to verify a claim made by anyone or an organization ?.

i`m interested in what you have to say about this ..

Disillusioned JW

carla, the site at https://internationalbiblestudents.com/history.html does not say JW's (Jehovah's Witnesses) are not International Bible Students, instead it says "Bible Students Are Not Jehovah's Witnesses ". That is very different. The various Bible Students groups (such as Dawn Bible Students) are not a part of International Bible Students Association, but the people working at International Bible Students Association in the UK are Jehovah's Witnesses. Furthermore, the International Bible Students Association in the UK publishes literature of the Jehovah's Witness.

carla, the site you linked to at https://www.friendsofjehovahswitnesses.com/2011/09/01/bible-students-are-not-jehovahs-witnesses/ in Comments section, in a comment by Richard.Tazzyman on September 20, 2018 says "Hello Diana,The IBSA In England is the Legal name used by the JWs In the UK." In contrast he then says regarding his group (not ISBA in the UK) that "We are the original Bible Students which the JWs broke away from when Pastor Russell died.We have members all over the world & In the UK as well."

But, perhaps there is a different IBSA (a non-JW one) than the JW one used in the UK.

12

Verifying The Claim The IBSA ,not JW ,were approved by Jehovah God / Christ Jesus as God`s Chosen People in 1919 ??

by smiddy3 in

how do they verify this claim,if they can and how easy do we debunk this claim if we can ?.

what is needed to verify a claim made by anyone or an organization ?.

i`m interested in what you have to say about this ..

Disillusioned JW

I.B.S.A. was set up under the control of Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania. As far as I can tell it still is under that control. It was definitely under WT control in 1998 as one of the publishers of WT publications. For example the First Printing In English of Is There a Creator Who Cares About You? lists them as a publisher of that book, as well as Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. as the other publisher. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporations_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses#International_Bible_Students_Association says the following. 'The International Bible Students Association (IBSA) is a corporate not-for-profit organization used by Jehovah's Witnesses in the United Kingdom for the production and distribution of religious literature. Its stated purpose is "to promote the Christian religion by supporting congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses and others in connection with their spiritual and material welfare in Britain and abroad within the charitable purposes of the Association."[22]'

Therefore though the WT long ago stopped referring to their religion as International Bibles Students (or "International Bibles Students Association"?) They still to continue to use the "International Bible Students Association as one of their own publishers.

However there is a website at https://www.internationalbiblestudents.com/ but I don't see on it any WT literature which was published after Russell died.

43

Does this look like the WT is going to be around a long time? One Watchtower @ One Awake for the public in 2022

by pistolpete in

i keep hearing that the watchtower org is going to be around forever because of the many other religions that have been around a long time.

but i disagree because the wt is not like other religious cults.. the watchtower's breath of life is dependent on the last days that started in 1914. .

you can’t change 1914 without a death blow to the entire organization.. the watchtower's 2nd reason for staying alive, is it's continual urging that the life saving preaching work of warning people is the most important work ever.. but- it's very obvious to many, even the old ones that instead of speeding up the work------the work is slowing down to a drip.. comment by former believer; .

Disillusioned JW

Much of what I wrote (but not the WTS' role I ascribed to possible future teachings of the WTS) in the prior two posts of this topic thread about biblical doctrines are what I had come to believe while I was an independent Christian, including during the two years when I partook of the Memorial emblems (but using freshly squeezed red grape juice instead of red wine) privately in my home with me conducting the memorial event to myself.

43

Does this look like the WT is going to be around a long time? One Watchtower @ One Awake for the public in 2022

by pistolpete in

i keep hearing that the watchtower org is going to be around forever because of the many other religions that have been around a long time.

but i disagree because the wt is not like other religious cults.. the watchtower's breath of life is dependent on the last days that started in 1914. .

you can’t change 1914 without a death blow to the entire organization.. the watchtower's 2nd reason for staying alive, is it's continual urging that the life saving preaching work of warning people is the most important work ever.. but- it's very obvious to many, even the old ones that instead of speeding up the work------the work is slowing down to a drip.. comment by former believer; .

Disillusioned JW

The WTS also needs to teach that Jesus Christ is not an angel (except possibly in the broad sense as having been at times a messenger of the Father) and that Jesus Christ is not Michael the Archangel. They can further state that in the future Michael will serve under the command of Jesus. If they retain the idea of Revelation 12:7 - 12 being a past event instead of a future one, they can say that in the event described Michael was serving under the command of Jesus.

The WTS can also readopt a portion of Russell's ideas (and of Rutherford's early ideas) of the restoration of Jews to Israel. WTS can say that though the government of the nation of Israel is not a theocracy and thus not being ruled by Jehovah, that Jehovah nonetheless played a role in causing much of the Jewish people to be restored to Israel. They can further say that such is preparatory to opening the minds of many Jews to eventually accepting Jesus as the foretold Messiah. The WTS can say that the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation are not people of WTS' religion in the early 1900s, but rather are people (perhaps Enoch and Moses) who are yet to do what Revelation foretells, and that what is described about them in Revelation are largely meant to be interpreted literally. The WTS can further say that by the future work of those two witnesses, their subsequent literal resurrection and ascension to heaven, and a future earthquake in Jerusalem, many Jews in Jerusalem will become followers of Jesus. They can remind people that Paul in one of his letters said that all Israel will be saved.